Elemental System

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What kind of elemental system would you like to see?

A small number of elements (~8) with pair-wise effects
6
46%
A small number of elements(~8) with non-pair wise effects
2
15%
A large number of elements (>> 8) with pair-wise effects
0
No votes
A large number of elements(>> 8) with non-pair wise effects
2
15%
Who needs an element system anyway? Axe the thing all together.
0
No votes
Element systems like this have been overdone. Do something totally different instead! (elaborate if you select this please)
3
23%
 
Total votes: 13
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Elemental System

Postby Roots » Sun May 22, 2005 8:10 am

I was pondering tonight in my insomnia and I was wondering how we should implement our 'elemental' system. You know, the whole Fire, Water, Wind, etc. elemental types you commonly see in RPGs. I'm wondering what type of system everyone would like to see. I've thought up a few generic options I put in the poll. Let me explain them:

- Few number of elements (8 or less probably) is exactly what it says. Have a handful of elemental types, but don't go over-board.

- Large number of elemental types (>> 8) for having a lot of variety between enemy types.

- Pair-wise effects: basically elemental types are grouped into opposite pairs (Fire vs Water, Light vs Dark, etc.). An element only has an effect when used on an object of the same (resistance) or opposite (increased effectiveness) elemental type. So you can't expect any gain when using a Light elemental attack against a Fire elemental monster for example.

- Non-pair wise effects: Every element has some sort of effect on another element, whether it's small, large, or reverses the effect (think casting a fire spell on a fire elemental enemy would increase it's HP).


So what system do you like the best, and think would work for Allacrost the best? If you have any innovative ideas please share them, because I'm drawing a blank on doing something to stay away from the "common-place" (boring) elemental interactions. :huh:
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Postby Classic_gamer » Sun May 22, 2005 9:31 am

I voted for a large number of elements (>> 8) with non-pair wise effects because even though it's "common-place" I think it's less common-place than pair-wise effects and I like having lots of elements to look after. I'm sorry I can't be more helpful, but I'm drawing a blank on what other kind of system you could have.
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Postby turin » Sun May 22, 2005 4:13 pm

I voted small # with non-pair-wise effects, because that would IMHO make for the most interesting gameplay. Not sure why, though. :huh:


And by small #, I mean exactly 6 -- Fire, Earth, Air, Water, Dark, Light is enough. I don't think its a good idea to have the any of the other elements I've seen (Wind, Ice, and Energy come to mind).
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Postby Balthazar » Sun May 22, 2005 4:59 pm

I think that rather than have pairwise effects, we should integrate elementals into our existings MAPS system.  Examples:

--casting a wind spell on an opponents head blinds them
--casting a nature spell on an opponents body poisons them
--casting an ice spell on an opponents feet slows them

I think that status ailments add much more to tactical gameplay than simple resists and absorbs.  It also adds more variety for casters, as instead of having a third or half of your spellbook unusable depending on the enemy you're fighting, you have much more flexibility, while still keeping it relatively simple.

EDIT:  Voting last option since I've never seen this before.
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Postby Roots » Sun May 22, 2005 5:07 pm

I voted a small number with pair-wise effects (6, maybe 8 if they can fit in well). Having a large number of elements would only be confusing to the player and not bring a whole lot into the game. Havining non pair-wise effects would also be confusing. For example, let's say we have the following effectiveness rating for fire vs each element:

Fire vs Fire: -100%
Fire vs Water: 200%
Fire vs Earth: 50%
Fire vs Wind: 120%
Fire vs Light: 105%
FIre vs Dark: 75%


How is the player supposed to remember that for each element pair? It's better to just keep things simple. Instead of pair-wise though, maybe something like a looped list of effectiveness like:

Water effective against Fire
Fire effective against Wind
Wind Effective Against Earth
etc.


Hmmm this is tough to decide on :|. Two games that come to mind when I think unique elemental systems are Secret of Mana and Fire Emblem. Secret of Mana was big on elements and the elements in the game were really distinct. Fire Emblem took the 'element' system to weapons, where sword was effective against axe, axe was effective against lance, and lance was effective against sword.
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Postby Balthazar » Sun May 22, 2005 5:09 pm

Re: Fire Emblem

Sounds more like rock, paper, scissors to me :P

I guess you were writing yours while I wrote and posted mine since you have no comments?
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Postby Roots » Sun May 22, 2005 5:14 pm

Balthazar wrote:I guess you were writing yours while I wrote and posted mine since you have no comments?



Yes, you are right. :angel: I like your idea, you may be on to something. Integrating it with MAPS and using status instead of just increased/decreased/reverse effectiveness is a good idea. Still though, I'd feel a little odd casting a Fire spell on a lava monster or something and seeing it do the same amount of damage as it would to a non-fire elemental enemy. :| Maybe we can tweak the damage just a bit so that reduced effect is noticable, but not insanely low or have a reverse effect. That way the player can still consider casting a fire spell on a fire enemy for the status it may afflict and not just the damage..... :shrug:
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Postby Balthazar » Sun May 22, 2005 5:18 pm

Sounds like a fair compromise.
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Postby Rain » Sun May 22, 2005 7:21 pm

turin wrote:I voted small # with non-pair-wise effects, because that would IMHO make for the most interesting gameplay. Not sure why, though. :huh:


And by small #, I mean exactly 6 -- Fire, Earth, Air, Water, Dark, Light is enough. I don't think its a good idea to have the any of the other elements I've seen (Wind, Ice, and Energy come to mind).


I would disagree that pairing would make for less interesting gameplay.  If anything, it increases the overall possibilities at a players disposal to completely customize their character.  For example, one element for a character will provide 1 bonus, no more no less.  However, think of the possibilities if 2 elements were combined: such as a fire element mixed with a tornado element so that the player could somehow shoot out small fiery tornados for increased damage and a more specialized attribute increase at level up?

What if when certain elements are combined in a special configuration,  Gods of the Universe would be called upon for assistance, drop out of the sky and accompany the characters during battle?  

I think there can be a lot more interesting game play, customization and overall depth if we could somehow implement pairing.
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Postby Balthazar » Sun May 22, 2005 7:35 pm

I think you missed what they meant by "pairing" Rain.

Usually when you have an elemental system, you have pairs of elements that are opposite.  Fire vs. Ice.  Light vs. Dark.

So Ice things are weak against Fire and Strong against Ice.

What you are describing is sort of a magic combo system.  The best example of this that I've played is Final Fantasy Crystal Chronicles.  When a player cast a spell, it created a "spell ring".  You would use this ring to target an enemy (I should say that the batttles were real time a la Secret of Mana, Zelda), and then release the spell button to let it rip.

However, if two players timed their spell release, it would combine into a bigger spell.  So stacking (the term used because you "stack" the targeting circles) Fire and Ice gave you Demi, a gravity spell.  Stacking two Fire spells gave you Fire 2.  While this was a great system, I don't want to implement it in Allacrost because I think it would over complicate the battle system.  Also, you can't have two players cast at the same time.
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Postby Rain » Sun May 22, 2005 10:33 pm

Balthazar wrote:I think you missed what they meant by "pairing" Rain.

Usually when you have an elemental system, you have pairs of elements that are opposite.  Fire vs. Ice.  Light vs. Dark.

So Ice things are weak against Fire and Strong against Ice.

What you are describing is sort of a magic combo system.  The best example of this that I've played is Final Fantasy Crystal Chronicles.  When a player cast a spell, it created a "spell ring".  You would use this ring to target an enemy (I should say that the batttles were real time a la Secret of Mana, Zelda), and then release the spell button to let it rip.

However, if two players timed their spell release, it would combine into a bigger spell.  So stacking (the term used because you "stack" the targeting circles) Fire and Ice gave you Demi, a gravity spell.  Stacking two Fire spells gave you Fire 2.  While this was a great system, I don't want to implement it in Allacrost because I think it would over complicate the battle system.  Also, you can't have two players cast at the same time.


Ah. Indeed I did miss the brunt of what was going on.  What else is new?     I am just going to go sit in a dark corner in the Music section and give myself time to think about my erroneous behavior.   :heh:

Hmmm, I was thinking of the context of a materia system when thinking of 'pairing'.  As the term was intended, I agree that the fire vs. ice method has been way overdone, but what other choices do we have?    

The only other thing I have to add is that it would be way cool if we could integrate multi coordinated attacks as done in Chrono Trigger.  Would it be impossible to make that happen?

I also really think that the game could be much cooler if there was some kind of summoning element.  It doesn't have to be espers or Materia.  For instance, Laila could have an extremely strong connection with nature, which would be fitting considering the nature (no pun intended) of her music and her outfit, which is bright green.  STORY IDEA: Why not make her a sylph of the forest or something (or maybe incorporate the fact that she may be half human/ half forest creature) (tangent alert!!!!)  Anyways, her particular summon could call upon the power of the forest spirit to either A) Strengthen allies, B) Put a massive hurt on the enemy party C) Have a tree do a dance that enhances the characters attributes in some way for a duration of the fight.

or

we could actually have some random creature from the forest enter the fray and be an additional member of the team for a remainder of the battle!  How cool would that be?!!   (Reminds me a little of Spar's nature   call from Breath of Fire 2, but it wasn't well done in that game and I think we could really do some neat brainstorming on this issue and how to make it a gameplay factor)

At any rate, complexity on the battle front should be a given.  Not too complex, but enough to contain substance... I mean, after 250 battles in Final Fantasy VI, I kind of start getting bored.  (Maybe thats my ADHD, I dunno)
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Postby Loodwig » Mon May 23, 2005 12:54 am

I like elements, as they add a real depth to the gameplay.  However, I would think that even a "Fire" axe would still do damage against a fire enemy, just MUCH less.  And certainly, you wouldn't heal them, unless you're really a sadist (*cough* squaresoft *cough*).  When I've encountered this aspect in other games... healing enemies with attacks, it annoyed me, especially when it was my standard attack.

Here's how I'm doing it in my game.

First off, there are 5 armor types:
Flesh - for Myote (alien) and unshielded humans.
Shield - for most combatant humans who have energy shields
Robot - since robots can just be plated to hell, they can be real tanks
Demonic - regenerative flesh and strengths to terrestrial damage types
Seraph - not fully existing in reality, they are more vulnerable to advanced elementals than baser effects.

And weapons are constructed with many parts

Foundation - The basic weapon itself (hilt, handle, blade, barrel)
Power source - The baser elemental property and... source of power (clip, etc)
Mod Casing - The advanced elemental property, like a sheath added on, or additional physical enchantment (adding organic technology to a steel blade)
Logic Casing - The computer aspect, which deals with accuracy and enhancing the base damage (like a +1 mace!)
Diviner - a real "enchantment" that improves both the baser and advanced elemental types.


Each weapon has a base attribute which determines the damage degree of your attack.  This is determined by the foundation of your weapon (for semantic purposes).  There is also the baser aspect and advanced aspect, which contain 3 'elements' to which certain enemy types have strengths and weaknesses (with noteable exceptions for certain bosses).

The baser aspect is determined by the weapon's power source and diviner.  The advanced aspect is affected by the Mod casing and diviner.  Also add to this a logic casing which determines accuracy, as well as modifies the base attack.

The baser elements are:
Volt (electrical) which is great against robots
Gravity (magnetic) which does well against energy shields
Atomic (heat?) which does well against bare flesh

The advanced elements are
Holy (name change please) which does virtually nothing against holy enemies, and pretty well against everything else.
Cursed (duality) which does quite well against holy enemies, and so-so against everythign else.
Organic (living weapons) which do very well against demonic enemies, and little good against everything else (useless agaisnt energy shields and robot armor).

The idea is that the baser elements have their own rock-paper-scissors relationship and the same would hold true for advanced elements.  All of this would still be additional to the base damage of a weapon (everything but holy and demonic enemies are equally vulnerable to plain ol' steel, and even the holy and demonic do take damage).  And since you could mix and match weapons (for the hero and for NPCs), you could develop a weapon that's especially good for a situation ahead (fighting a ton of demons), but still be ok for the occasional opposite alignment (random encounter with the seraph or robot).

My primary aim was to avoid having a weapon that would lean too heavily to one side, and create some balance while allowing for diversity.  I don't want to be to homogenized, but I don't like extremes either.

I really like the idea of certain attacks carrying with them "elemental" damage.
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Postby Balthazar » Mon May 23, 2005 9:52 pm

Wow Loodwig, that sounds really interesting!

Rain, a combo system has already been nixed.  It's just too complicated, and doesn't fit with the battle system that we want.

As far as your story idea, I'm not making the secondary character/primary love interest a summoner.  *coughFFXcough*

And believe me, I think the battle system will be enough to satisfy even you.
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Postby Rain » Mon May 23, 2005 11:47 pm

Balthazar wrote:
And believe me, I think the battle system will be enough to satisfy even you.


(Stated in that statliest noble address possibly possible)

"WE SHALL SEE. COME IGNATIUS!!!  Let us retreat to confines of the music section."

But seriously Balthasazar, can't wait to check it out.
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Postby Roots » Tue May 24, 2005 4:35 am

Finally got around to reading the latest posts in this thread. :angel: WOW, I really like your idea Joe! What if we do something like this for our element system. Instead of having the plain old "fire sword" or "ice spear" that you buy in shops, what if each weapon comes with a number of "slots" (think materia) that you can add elemental stones to add bonuses to your weapon(s)? That way we have control over the base stats of weapons and armors (so it's more sane for us to balance) and the user can customize their own weapons to their liking? Yeah it's kinda like Diablo II I guess, but whatever. I think the players might really like this (players reading this, please confirm or deny my statement) customizability and it could add another strategic element to the game.


Question points might be: Are magical stones removable once they've been placed or are they stuck permanently? (I'm kinda torn between this one :|) Where does the player obtain the stones from? (I'm thinking mostly scattered around the map, with only a few basic types sold in shops). Tell me what you guys think about that. And maybe we can include status stones, not just elemental stones? Hell, why don't we just mix elements and status together since Tim already proposed doing that with integration into the MAP system? The possibilities are limitless :eyespin:
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Postby Loodwig » Tue May 24, 2005 5:00 am

Yeah it's kinda like Diablo II I guess, but whatever


I never played the expansion, but I was thinking (when putting it in my own game) that it would be more like VS or KOTOR.  I'm not much of a fan of 'permanant' customization, but I also think it's kinda silly to be able to mod your weapon in the heat of combat.  Alternativly, you could have two weapons that could be swapped, or a multitude of pre-made weapons in your inventory that could be broken down into fundamental components.

Hell, why don't we just mix elements and status together since Tim already proposed doing that with integration into the MAP system?


I think that's a great idea, provided it isn't the ONLY way to cause status ailments.
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Postby Balthazar » Tue May 24, 2005 6:50 am

Loodwig wrote:I think that's a great idea, provided it isn't the ONLY way to cause status ailments.


Can you explain this further?  Why wouldn't this be the only way to cause status effects?  Perhaps I should mention that these spells would also be doing raw damage, as well as the status effects (all numbers to be determined during balancing).

I guess we could have some spells cause status and some not.
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Postby Loodwig » Tue May 24, 2005 7:52 am

ah, well, that was my only thought.  I would like to think that you can do more than just hit someone in the head to cause a "silence" status effect.  Spells and special abilities would be sufficient.

One gribe about status effects (a bit off topic) is the cliche that they always work against your allies, rarely against enemies, and NEVER against bosses.  Granted it's a bit silly if you can kill the final boss with lvl5 doom, but still... it would be cool if you could weaken him a bit with a silence spell before you hammer him with your "flare" spell and "chaos breaker"

(break chaos... isn't that like making a messy room messier?)
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Postby Balthazar » Tue May 24, 2005 3:12 pm

Never heard of the FFVI Vanish/Doom trick?
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Postby Roots » Tue May 24, 2005 8:05 pm

Cheap tricks/cheats like that suck :disapprove:
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